Sign of the Times

Podcast Transcript

Ed Coyne: Hello and welcome to Sprott Radio. I'm your host, Ed Coyne, Senior Managing Partner at Sprott Asset Management. I'm pleased today to welcome two first-time guests to Sprott Radio: Veronica Annala and Gabriel Ivory. Both Veronica and Gabriel are seniors at Texas A&M University, and they're both studying nuclear engineering. I'm excited today to have them on Sprott Radio to get their view on what's happening in the world of nuclear. Veronica and Gabriel, thank you today for joining us on Sprott Radio.

Gabriel Ivory: Yes, thank you so much for having us.

Veronica Annala: Yes, thank you.

Ed Coyne: This is the first time we're having young college students such as yourselves on Sprott Radio, and we've done close to 60 podcasts over the last few years. Before we go into today's topic of nuclear engineering and nuclear energy in general, I'd love for each of you to tell our listeners about your background, why you chose Texas A&M, and what got you focused on nuclear engineering. Veronica, why don't we start with you? Can you give us a bit of your background, if you don't mind?

Veronica Annala: Absolutely. I'm originally from northern Minnesota. I studied, designed, and worked on solar cells in high school. I was very interested in chemistry and had more of an environmentalist background. Growing up in northern Minnesota, you're surrounded by beautiful lakes and forests, so I was very much aware of how humans were impacting the world around us. I thought solar would be a good way to help the Earth and make a difference.

When I did come to school, I chose Texas A&M because it's an amazing university with an amazing engineering program. I took a lot more chemistry classes, learned more about nuclear energy, and decided that that was the solution. That was an eye-opening moment for me.

Ed Coyne: Gabriel, how about you? A little bit about your background, what brought you to Texas A&M, and your focus on nuclear energy as well.

Gabriel Ivory: I'm originally from Louisiana but grew up overseas. My dad's in oil and gas, so I was exposed to energy at a young age. I consider myself an environmentalist. Growing up, I knew I wanted to be an engineer. I was interested in energy and combining that with environmentalism, so renewables seemed like the obvious choice. When we moved back to the U.S., we moved to Houston. When I started 8th grade, I was interested in renewables as a career, and Texas A&M was a close-to-home university and a very good engineering school.

I chose A&M, and it was a conversation with a professor I had in my first semester here in a first-year experience class where I got to know a lot about the university and the engineering department in general. I was having a conversation with that professor about what I wanted to go into regarding renewables. Well, she preferred nuclear, and she just thought nuclear was a better option overall. After researching that, I was like, "Yes, nuclear is a better option." That's how I got into nuclear and just the energy in general.

Ed Coyne: Well, with your father being in oil and gas, was he supportive? Did he debate? How was it coming home? What was the take there?

Gabriel Ivory: It's not personal at all. He understands the world's need for energy, and he understands the benefits. He obviously knows that my heart is in that environmentalist mode, I guess. He understood why I chose that path. We talk about it all the time. We had good civil discussions about that, and he understood that nuclear energy can be a benefit to oil production. We see what's going on in the Permian Basin, decarbonizing oil production. He's supportive of that.

Ed Coyne: Well, I think that's good to hear. There must be some fun conversations there, and it's a great way to connect with your dad. Being the father of two, anything I can do to tether myself with my kids is always positive. That's great you guys have that. Well, we're going to go into what brought us all together, which is the sign from College GameDay, which made this whole thing possible, I guess, almost two months ago.

Before we do, you guys have also done something cool and interesting at the university, which has created your organization, and I believe it's called NARO. I'll ask you to talk about what that means. Go into that a little bit. What brought you to, as students, with already a full workload, what brought you to creating an organization specific to nuclear energy? Veronica, you're the president, so we'll start with you. Why don't you give us a bit of background on that?

Veronica Annala: Okay. So yes, it's NARO. NARO is the Nuclear Advocacy Resource Organization. It started about a year ago now. I was doing a study abroad, and it was the first time I was around other students who weren't engineers, honestly, because I immediately came into school and went straight to engineers, so a lot of like-minded individuals.

I had the chance to have some conversations with people outside of engineering. When they asked what I was majoring in, I got some shocked looks, and one of the girls I was talking to said, "You are so nice. Why do you want to kill people?" I said, "That is not what I do at all." We ended up talking for a few hours, and I gave her my whole spiel about what exactly we do and why I think it is so amazing, and she ended up walking away from that conversation with a changed mind.

I think that was the first time I realized that it's not an engineering issue, it's not a physics issue, it's a people problem. I like talking to people. I like having good, informed conversations with people, and I think other people are willing to hear, but they don't know yet. I came home from study abroad and was determined to get the word out. It wasn't until the beginning of this semester that I launched NARO. Then came the sign.

Gabriel Ivory: With the sign, I had this feeling a couple of years back, starting to get into nuclear energy or nuclear engineering and just learning about its benefits. The more and more I learned, the more I felt like, "Why aren't we talking about this all the time? This is something that can benefit everybody. This is something that has a bad reputation. How can we change that? How can we bring this into casual conversation?"

It was August 30, College GameDay was coming to A&M, and it was the first week of the regular college football season. Millions of people around the country watch College GameDay. When it's in your backyard or at your school, a lot of people are there. I'm sure you've seen the crowds, and obviously, there are a lot of people watching. I decided that I would make a sign, and I needed just something simple. I just thought, "Well, I like nuclear energy, I love nuclear energy," so I will write that on the sign. I wrote that with the help of my girlfriend, and then I woke up at 4:00 in the morning…

Veronica Annala: Quick pause. We have something at A&M called Midnight Yell.

Ed Coyne: Okay.

Veronica Annala: It's midnight before a big game. Everyone goes to the stadium at midnight, and we practice our yells.

Ed Coyne: Fantastic.

Gabriel Ivory: We all went to Midnight Yell at midnight, obviously the night before. That takes a while. That goes for about an hour.

Ed Coyne: Oh my, just an hour of yelling.

Veronica Annala: Yes.

Gabriel Ivory: Just an hour of yelling and practicing yelling.

Veronica Annala: When you're an Aggie, you don't mind it.

Ed Coyne: Yes. You're making me miss college again, which was many years ago.

Gabriel Ivory: This lasts about an hour.

Veronica Annala: It's already very late.

Gabriel Ivory: It's already very late at night. It's 1:00 AM, and when I get home, it's about 2:00 AM before I even go to sleep. I wake up at 4:00 in the morning. I get there at around 5:00 in the morning, and there's already a big crowd. I rush to the front, and I get a good spot. I'm holding the sign, and obviously, it's before they're filming anything, and some people around me are like, "Oh, what is the sign about nuclear energy?"

Every sign there is about the game or football, and then there's just the one sign that says I Heart Nuclear Energy. People are taken aback by it. I had a couple of conversations with people, and then obviously, when the camera started rolling, I got to go to the front because somebody on set was like, "I want to see the signs. The signs are my favorite part of game day." I kind of just bulldozed through a couple of people. I got to the front and showed my sign.

Ed Coyne: I guess that earned you the right to be the VP, then?

Gabriel Ivory: That was my audition.

Ed Coyne: There you go.

Gabriel Ivory: I said, "I do care about nuclear advocacy; let me show you." I got there, and the cameras rolled. It's about a three-hour show, and I'm there the whole time. After I got out, she texted me, "How'd it go?" I said, "I had a few good conversations with people."

Veronica Annala: I have the text. You said, "I talked to three people," and I was over the moon. I was like, "He talked to three people." Then, I think, literally two hours later.

Gabriel Ivory: Basically, everything blew up a couple of hours later.

Veronica Annala: Then I said, "This is a lot more than three people Gabe."

Gabriel Ivory: This is more than a couple of people.

Veronica Annala: It was cool.

Ed Coyne: That's fantastic. If I read this correctly, it's undergrad of the year for the sign. Did I read that right?

Gabriel Ivory: That was a huge surprise. I was awarded that a couple of months later. That was something that the department does every year, and I was just shocked and surprised to get that, but that was awesome.

Veronica Annala: Super cool. Definitely deserved.

Ed Coyne: I'm sure Gabriel's getting harder to spend time with, with all this fame he's gotten. You have to gently remind him every once in a while that you are the president, in fact, of this organization.

Veronica Annala: He's really good. When NARO first started, people kept coming up to me and asking, "Did you start this because of Gabe?" I was like, "No," and he'll correct them. He's really good about it. He's like, "No, this is her thing. I'm the vice president. She started this before I did the sign thing."

Ed Coyne: Really cool. It sounds like a lot of this stuff, and we get this at our level, talking to big institutions and investors. The misconception of nuclear energy permeates; regardless of people's education level and experiences, it's still just the boogeyman. I think half of all the superheroes in the world were exposed to nuclear fallout or nuclear waste and got their superpowers. It's a misnomer out there. What are you guys doing to help set the record straight, help people understand the benefits of nuclear, all those different things? What are some of the things you guys are working on right now that could be interesting?

Veronica Annala: NARO, first and foremost, in my opinion, is a marketing organization because, like I've said, and I'll say a million times, this is not an engineering issue. This is a solid issue in terms of engineering and physics. This is a people problem. It's a marketing problem. The sign was the second big thing that we did. The first thing we did right away was a survey of over 400 A&M students and just got a baseline idea of where people's minds were. Then, the sign blew up, which was amazing and gave us more of a platform.

Since then, we've been doing a lot of advocacy work just to change the narrative about nuclear energy. If you've seen it in this light your whole life, every movie, book, The Simpsons, whatever, everything you've ever seen shows this scary, green, glowing goo. You have no reason to believe that that's not what it is. We're just changing this image that people have in their minds.

Gabriel Ivory: Returning to the surveys, it was telling the results we got. Many people thought solar, wind, and hydro were all encapsulating cleaner than nuclear. They'd rather live near a hydro plant or a wind farm than a nuclear plant. All of the things that we know how people feel about nuclear, but it just went to show us that our work is cut out for us. This is something that we need to do. Some of the activities that came out of that were going around campus, and we passed out candies and little dum-dum lollipops with facts about nuclear energy attached to them.

Ed Coyne: Cool.

Gabriel Ivory: We passed out over 500 of those. We had about 100 people scan the QR code, but a bunch of people came up to us after they read the fact and were like, "Wait, is this true? I didn't even know this about nuclear." We didn't necessarily expect that, but seeing people's minds changing about nuclear in real-time was awesome.

Ed Coyne: That's amazing. I would love to see you guys expand on that a bit outside of the campus or go to other campuses. I guess that gets me to the next question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're both seniors at Texas A&M.

Gabriel Ivory: Yes.

Veronica Annala: Correct.

Ed Coyne: Is the next step a graduate program, or is it to go out into the working world or expand on your organization? What's next for you guys as you go into your final semester of school?

Gabriel Ivory: From my perspective, the organization will always be there. There will always be a need to talk about nuclear and remind people that it is a good energy source. Regarding my plans after graduation, I'm currently an intern for Westinghouse, working on the eVinci reactor design. I'm interested in that. There's a lot of things out there. I'm interested in a whole nuclear fuel cycle. Core design is something that I'm passionate about. There's a ton out there. There's a lot of stuff I'm interested in. We'll see a lot of this, even if it just comes from stuff like this.

Ed Coyne: I want to expand on some of your interests in a moment, but before we do that, I want to go back to Veronica and ask the same question. What's next for you once you graduate from Texas A&M?

Veronica Annala: We need more energy, not less energy. Two summers ago, I had the chance to spend the summer in Tanzania. I lived in a chicken wire window hut, which rarely had electricity or running water. I got a firsthand summer experience of what it's like to live with very intermittent power. The community is very affected, but this is a large reality for most of the world. I think energy is a human right, and everyone deserves to have energy. I think that the absolute best way, the safest, cleanest, and most reliable way to get them energy, is nuclear, hands down. I'm very passionate about it, whether it's through engineering or advocacy. Either way, we need to get the job done.

In one of our senior design classes, our professor discussed paper reactors versus real reactors. Engineers tend to focus a lot on design and concepts instead of sometimes actually getting reactors going. I'm more interested in real reactors. If people or policies are stopping them from happening, then that's what I'm more interested in.

Ed Coyne: It sounds like you might have a future on Capitol Hill. I don't know how political you want to get.

Veronica Annala: As political as I need to get. I can do it.

Ed Coyne: I think you hit it right on the head, though, when you said it's a people problem. It's a great way to think about it because spending time in Tanzania makes you realize that over here in the U.S., we talk a lot about clean, efficient energy, but they want energy. If something like a small module reactor or other types of technologies out there, which I want to talk about in a moment, could bring that to the forefront in a much quicker, cleaner, sustainable way, man, that would be a game changer because so much of the world doesn't even have a single light bulb or refrigerator in their house yet. It's amazing. We're all focused on ensuring our Wi-Fi runs 24/7, but there are much more basic needs than those that I think nuclear could be part of. That's very exciting.

Gabriel Ivory: You mentioned the same point in the episode with Zion Lights, and I thought that was a very true point. We ask these countries to leapfrog and take on these new clean technologies, but like she said, how dare you? There's a lot out there that needs to be addressed.

Veronica Annala: You're not going to choose a car brand for your kids to drive if you've never heard of it before because you don't know if it's safe, reliable, or anything about it. What is unknown is just automatically off the table.

Gabriel Ivory: Dangerous.

Veronica Annala: Yes, it's dangerous. It's a thing for a reason. There's a reason that humans feel that way. If we get the message out, I think advocacy, engineering, and clean, reliable energy for all go hand in hand. I think it's very important to get the message out.

Ed Coyne: I couldn't agree more. That's partly what we're doing today. Gabriel, you talked about some of the technologies you're interested in. I know you probably can't go too deep into what you're doing with Westinghouse, but having said that, what are some of the technologies out there from both your points of view as students? You're at the forefront of what's happening and what the professors are discussing in this space and engineering in general. What are some of the more dynamic or interesting things that are getting you excited that you want to share with the listeners today regarding nuclear energy and what's happening in the industry?

Gabriel Ivory: Two immediately come to mind when I think of technologies I'm interested in. The connecting point between these two is that they make an already sustainable and environmentally friendly industry even more sustainable and environmentally friendly. I'm very interested in nuclear desalination because when I was in fifth grade, the author Linda Sue Park wrote A Long Walk to Water, a story about a South Sudanese refugee and his struggles with water scarcity and coming to America. That really hit home. Also, hearing about the Flint, Michigan, water crisis was one thing that stuck with me at a young age.

I've always been interested in water security. When I heard that nuclear power can be used to desalinate water, I was like, "This is so awesome." That was one of the things. I was like, "Why aren't we always discussing this?" One of the things I've learned about. Then the other one is a breeder reactor. Something that can close the nuclear fuel loop, if you will. I understand why they're not licensed in the U.S. or for commercial purposes, but I think it's just such a cool technology that we can create more fuel than we use; I think that's an insane concept when you think about it.

Veronica Annala: I think we have a unique perspective as senior undergrads because most of our classes right now are different companies, different speakers coming in from all over the country, and we get visitors from other countries. Оnce you hit senior year, it's like, "Okay. You know what you need to know. Now let's hear how people apply what you know to real-world situations."

Right now, it's a crazy time. Every week, we have at least one startup or a well-established company come in, but they have a new reactor design idea. We had engineers from Ghana come in. It's part of the first program, getting SMRs deployed in Ghana, which is cool. That was probably, so far, my favorite visitor this year.

Gabriel Ivory: Yes, absolutely.

Ed Coyne: You guys are the future. I'm not saying that in any pandering way. The reality is that Three Mile Island is being reopened and is operating. They brought over 1,000 nuclear engineers back on-site to get that going again. If it's not people like yourselves studying this and focusing on it, we will have some issues. I think you guys are at the top of the food chain right now as it relates to our future, as it relates to all things nuclear, from a design standpoint, from a consumption standpoint, from a people standpoint of getting the news out there. I think what you guys are doing is nothing short of spectacular.

Let's go back to the sign for a second. I can't help myself with this. Where is the sign right now? Is it in your dorm? Is it at the Smithsonian? What's happening with it?

Gabriel Ivory: It's back in my apartment. It has a battle scar that I'll tell you about.

Ed Coyne: Let's hear it.

Gabriel Ivory: About a month ago, Veronica, I, and another friend of ours, Harrison, went to Austin, Texas, for their College GameDay when they played against Georgia. We were there operating low profile because we're Aggies, they're Longhorns. We don't want to raise any concerns. We were in the crowd, and it got chaotic early on. It was a mosh pit for six hours straight, basically. I'm holding on to the sign the entire time.

Eventually, somebody pushed me over, and we fell onto a barricade. As I was falling, I was holding the sign, and I literally felt it rip.

Ed Coyne: No.

Gabriel Ivory: I guess it caught on to something. That was a chaotic morning. I've got stories to tell about that.

Ed Coyne: I think you guys have gone beyond this, right? If I'm reading this correctly, you guys have these towels showing up at different campuses now about nuclear energy being clean energy. What is going on out there?

Veronica Annala: NARO hopes to spread from just A&M to all college students because, as you said, we are the future. I think it's a very positive future. I think a lot of college students are very open-minded in general. I think that's just a quality all college students by nature have. Our generation didn't grow up with such a--

Gabriel Ivory: Hard anti-nuclear sentiment.

Veronica Annala: Exactly. We grew up with the climate crisis right up front in our faces. I think any solution to that people are very open to hearing about. College students are going into the workforce. The sign has probably the craziest connection between all these schools because anywhere that College GameDay goes, nuclear advocacy is pretty cool.

Ed Coyne: I love it. Have you started a conversation with other schools about expanding your ground zero and chapter number 1 for NARO? Have other schools approached you about starting a chapter? Where are you in that process? That could be a full-time job in itself, I'd imagine.

Veronica Annala: Not yet.

Gabriel Ivory: We're still a very young organization.

Veronica Annala: I'm very open to it, though, if anyone's listening or wants to reach out.

Gabriel Ivory: Hopefully, more than a few family and friends will listen, but we'll find out about that.

Veronica Annala: Whatever university is out there listening.

Ed Coyne: To that point, how can someone get involved with NARO or follow the work you guys are doing, what you are passionate about, and what your career is? How can we keep this message going? What would you recommend people do, or how can they tap in or get ahold of you two?

Gabriel Ivory: Our LinkedIn is very active. It's a Nuclear Advocacy Resource Organization just on LinkedIn. We have a website, but we're going through a remodeling of that. Anything we post is pretty much going to be on LinkedIn exclusively. After graduation, we'd have many more capabilities for expanding beyond just Texas A&M. That's where you can reach us, LinkedIn, and our personal LinkedIn. I'm Gabriel Ivory, Veronica Annala.

Ed Coyne: Is the LinkedIn page just NARO, or what is the LinkedIn page? Someone types in N-A-R-O?

Gabriel Ivory: No, just Nuclear Advocacy Resource Organization, and then it should come up number one.

Ed Coyne: Great. I always like to ask this because I don't always ask the right questions. Is there anything you wanted to convey to the listeners today that I didn't ask or give you the opportunity to talk about? Veronica, why don't we start with you? Anything else you'd want to leave our listeners with?

Veronica Annala: I think that a lot of your listeners are probably pro-nuclear already, but I would say get talking about it. Even if you are or you're not, get talking about it, get learning about it. We can't do anything without these conversations.

Ed Coyne: How about you, Gabriel? Anything on top of that just as far as spreading the word?

Gabriel Ivory: Yes, I think if there's something that you're passionate about and there's something that you believe in fundamentally, care about it wholeheartedly. There are a lot of people who care about stuff. Pardon my French, maybe half-ass, but I don't know. Like I said, if there's something out there, because you never know where it'll take you, you never know what kind of conversation you'll have. You never know what you'll spark.

Ed Coyne: This isn't the end. This is the beginning for both of you. I'm excited to watch how your guys' careers and lives expand from this. I fully expect to hear from you both. As you get out into the world, please don't be strangers to us at Sprott. Also, to just all your colleagues, I think what you guys are doing is cool.

I started this reading about the sign. The more I read about the two of you and the work you're doing and have started to uncover NARO, the more I think it's awesome. I think our listeners are going to find it awesome. I wish you guys much success as you approach your final semester, which is amazing, I'm sure, to both of you that you're in your final semester. I wish you tons of success with that, and best of luck with all that. Again, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today on Sprott Radio.

Gabriel Ivory: Thank you so much for having us.

Veronica Annala: Thank you so much.

Ed Coyne: I wish you all the best, guys. Thank you, listeners. Once again, I'm Ed Coyne, and you're listening to Sprott Radio.